I been down to the Best Buy on Black Friday, y’all, and lived to tell the tale. Therefore, welcome back to the Wheel of Time Reread Redux!
(Sounds like it should be a folk song, doesn’t it. It probably should. Someone get on that.)
Annnyway, today’s Redux post will cover Chapters 18 and 19 of The Eye of the World, originally reread in this post and this post, respectively.
All original posts are listed in The Wheel of Time Reread Index here, and all Redux posts will also be archived there as well. (The Wheel of Time Master Index, as always, is here, which has links to news, reviews, interviews, and all manner of information about the Wheel of Time in general on Tor.com.)
The Wheel of Time reread is also now available as an ebook series, except for the portion covering A Memory of Light, which should become available soon.
All Reread Redux posts will contain spoilers for the entire Wheel of Time series, so if you haven’t read, read at your own risk.
And now, the post!
Chapter 18: The Caemlyn Road
Redux Commentary
“Carai an Caldazar,” Moiraine said. They all twisted to stare at her. “Carai an Ellisande. Al Ellisande. For the honor of the Red Eagle. For the honor of the Rose of the Sun. The Rose of the Sun. The ancient warcry of Manetheren, and the warcry of its last king. Eldrene was called the Rose of the Sun.” Moiraine’s smile took in Egwene and Mat both, though her gaze may have rested a moment longer on him than on her. “The blood of Arad’s line is still strong in the Two Rivers. The old blood still sings.”
Mat and Egwene looked at each other, while everyone else looked at them both. Egwene’s eyes were wide, and her mouth kept quirking into a smile that she bit back every time it began, as if she was not sure just how to take this talk of the old blood. Mat was sure, from the scowling frown on his face.
There’s… really not much I can add to my original commentary on this chapter, and on this moment in particular, because I still remember it as the moment where, on first reading, I was like, Aaahh. Okay, yeah, this is exactly what I was looking for, and settling in with avid glee to read more, because this was, then, and largely is still now, the thing I am looking for when I read these kinds of stories: that moment when a character realizes, not that there is more to the world than they knew, but that there is more to his- or herself than they knew.
It’s possible that I have belabored this concept into insensibility by this point, but there’s honestly not too much I can do about that, because it hasn’t stopped being true just because I’ve said it a lot.
*shrug* It’s a thing, and I loved it then and I still love it now. What can you do?
I do also remember, though, which I may not have said before, that I was sort of annoyed that it was Mat in particular who provided this paradigm shift moment here, because of course at the time he was by far my least favorite of the Superboys, for reasons previously discussed. Contrariwise, though, this also did a lot to reconcile me to his necessity for being there, so it’s probably six of one, half a dozen of the other, in the end.
It’s also pretty interesting how much later context brings to the awesomeness of Moiraine in this chapter. Because on first reading you are probably more inclined to be like well, she’s magic and this is what magic people do, but once we have a bit more knowledge of just how unusual Moiraine’s power level is among Aes Sedai (at least until the Supergirls showed up), it becomes a hell of a lot more impressive.
Chapter 19: Shadow’s Waiting
Redux Commentary
“I may not like her, it is true,” Nynaeve was saying to the Warder as Rand, leading Bela and Cloud, came in behind Thom, “but I help anyone who needs my help, whether I like them or not.”
“I made no accusation, Wisdom. I only said, have a care with your herbs.”
She gave him a look from the corner of her eye. “The fact is, she needs my herbs, and so do you.” Her voice was acerbic to start, and grew more tart as she spoke. “The fact is, she can only do so much, even with her One Power, and she has done about as much as she can without collapsing. The fact is, your sword cannot help her now, Lord of the Seven Towers, but my herbs can.”
Moiraine laid a hand on Lan’s arm. “Be at ease, Lan. She means no harm. She simply does not know.” The Warder snorted derisively.
I can never decide if the change in my reaction to Nynaeve’s character is more due to later context or to changes in my own personal life experiences and convictions. It’s probably an unanswerable question.
Like, the first time I read this I was annoyed as hell at Nynaeve for deliberately antagonizing both Moiraine and Lan, whereas now I am much more inclined to be amused at it, or at least understanding of it. But whether this is more because I now know how awesome Nynaeve will grow to be later on, or because I sympathize more than I used to with the instinct to assert what control you can have in a fundamentally uncontrollable situation, or because I have over the years come to have much more respect for those who question authority over those who accept it blindly, I couldn’t really tell you.
Though it might be more about that last one, now that I think about it. Because I kind of have to respect that Nynaeve already has the strength of character here to stand up to people who (at the time) she had no way of defending herself from, whereas I don’t know that at the same age I would have had that kind of courage. I’d like to think so, but of course we’d all like to believe that kind of thing about ourselves, wouldn’t we.
Mat scowled. “I was thinking about… about what happened back there. About those words I…” Everybody turned to look at him then, not just Rand, and he shifted uneasily. “Well, you heard what Moiraine said. It’s as if some dead man was speaking with my mouth. I don’t like it.” His scowl grew deeper when Perrin chuckled.
“Aemon’s warcry, she said—right? Maybe you’re Aemon come back again. The way you go on about how dull Emond’s Field is, I’d think you would like that—being a king and hero reborn.”
“Don’t say that!” Thom drew a deep breath; everybody stared at him now. “That is dangerous talk, stupid talk. The dead can be reborn, or take a living body, and it is not something to speak of lightly.”
It’s kind of hilarious just how much work Jordan made Thom’s really very ambiguous statement here do for him. Depending on how you look at it, it could be taken to be foreshadowing any one of a number of later events. The most obvious one, of course, given what happens next, is that it’s meant to be a clue to Mordeth’s plan to catch a farmboy ride out of Shadar Logoth (and the ride he did later catch with Fain, though I bet that didn’t turn out like he planned), but it could just as easily be taken to be foreshadowing of Lews Therin’s appearance in Rand’s head, the Dark One’s habit of stuffing dead Forsaken in stolen bodies, or even Mat’s becoming host to the memories of however many dead men. It’s a veritable smorgasbord of ominous portent!
Speaking of the latter possibility, it’s always sort of bothered me that Jordan seemed to have either retconned or forgotten that Mat had memories of a military nature long before he went to Rhuidean and got the Foxes’ “gifts,” because he later stated in an interview that Mat’s memories are not of his past lives “at all.” But given what happened in the last chapter, and especially what happens in TDR when Mat is Healed in the Tower, that actually can’t be the case. Plus, if so, why bring up the whole Old Blood/racial memory thing in the first place? (Though it does seem weird that no one else from the Two Rivers ever has this happen to them; Egwene doesn’t even really count in my opinion, because there’s a pretty large difference between sorta kinda understanding the Old Tongue, and bellowing warcries and spouting epithets at Aes Sedai in it.)
I usually reconcile this by reminding myself that WOT is literally millions of words long (and was even before Jordan’s passing), and therefore even the creator of it probably had some trouble sometimes keeping everything in it straight. The interview the above quote came from was part of COT’s publicity tour in 2003, which was thirteen years after TEOTW was published. I sometimes can’t remember what I wrote last week, so possibly I should put down my stone before I lose the insurance on my nice glass house.
That said, though it’s pretty clear that Mat was never Aemon himself reborn, he was definitely a few other Manethereans in previous lives as far as I’m concerned, because otherwise the previous chapter and the Healing scene in TDR just don’t make sense. And while it’s rather odd that Mat appears to be the only other person in all of WOT besides Rand himself to experience bleedthrough of his previous incarnations into his present one (unless I’m forgetting someone, and no, Birgitte does not count), the result was cool enough that I’m content to let it go.
(Although I think it would have been sort of awesome if something similar had happened to Egwene, now that I think about it. There was a lot of fan speculation back in the day that she was possibly the reincarnation of Latra Posae Decume, but sadly, other than the symbolic symmetry of Latra’s position as a foil for Lews Therin during the previous apocalypse, vis-à-vis Egwene and Rand’s standoff in this one, there’s really no support for the theory in the text. It’s a shame, because it means that her sort-of grasp of the Old Tongue in TEOTW ends up a dangling red herring. Or, er, an idiom that isn’t hopelessly juryrigged.)
“Mat’s doing,” Nynaeve said, certainty in her voice. “He’s always talking some mischief or other, and the others lose the little wits they were born with when they’re around him.”
Well, she’s not wrong.
I hope it’s not—pretentious? Arrogant? Something like that—that I snickered at my own previous commentary about how he is totally That Guy in the horror movie who gets everyone killed. Fortunately for Mat, he’s in a different genre. If Wes Craven had been writing this he would’ve been a pile of viscera by now.
(Or, well, maybe not. He’s still a virgin at this point, after all.)
I had some stuff to say in the original commentary about Moiraine’s story of Aridhol becoming Shadar Logoth and its place in WOT philosophy as sort of the Other White Evil™, but I think I’m going to save any possible further reflections on that for later, when we meet Pedron Niall and Elaida. (Though I’m still not sure that “Little Eichmanns” was the proper term to use there. But I couldn’t think of a better one then, and I still can’t now. Oh well.)
And that’s what I got for this one, kids! Happy December, and I’ll see you next week!
I loved these chapters. That is nearly all.
What does “the Rose of the Sun” even mean? I know who it refers to, but it’s a weird phrase.
BTW, I spent a while trying to figure out the meaning of “Dupotamian” — and then the answer arrived one night when I was two-thirds asleep. Sometimes the subconscious needs to kick in. :-P
Haha, the original post noted the refreshing moral ambiguity in this series…two years before the Read of Ice and Fire began. Be careful what you celebrate.
I remember thinking in the first read through of Mat’ s yelling out the old tongue that it was probably the result of past life intrusion, but knowing that later on in the series his brain is cluttered with the war plans from dozens of ancient warriors, it seemed to me Mat was “born with the memories” of the people of the land, like some Native Americans have been inclined to do over the ages. His “knowing” is similar to a shaman, except Mat deals in strategy instead of healing.
Good post. I agree on the battle cry MOA. It still gets me when I read it again. It is unusual that Mat is the only one with the ancestral memories (Rand doesn’t really count). I guess this shows that, like you said, it is hard to keep track of everything in a story this massive and complex. It is also evidence of how the story slow transmorphed from a more tranditional Mythic High Fantasy to a more…Er scientific(?), or at least a more empirical fantasy series as we progress through the story.
I know at this point in the first read, Ny was still annoying to me, but that was okay because she provided the narrative with a more internalish conflict among the group that, along with the copious external conflict doled out, helped keep the tension going and the story moving forward.
In the end, not much was made out of Egwene having old blood of Manetheren. She kind of could almost understand Old Tongue (like, when the healing of Mat in book 3 happened), and having Old Blood was one of the reasons there were so many people in the Two Rivers were channelers and powerful channelers (inbreeding ahoy!). But that was it. I kind of expected knowing who her ancestors were by the end of the series, but that didn’t happen.
Leigh – you hit the nail on the head with one of my biggest pet peeves, namely, that RJ gets it oh so wrong re Mat’s past life memories even prior to seeing the foxes. His statement makes no sense. Mat has a high level of Old Blood (especially given the TDR operating room scene) plus the fox memories – unless one assumes that he somehow got TDR memories from the Aridhol knife, in which case he has Old Blood (as seen in this chapter) plus knife memories (as seen in TDR) plus the fox memories. But the latter hypothesis makes little sense, as Mat’s memories in TDR are exclusively TR-focused rather than more general Aridhol era memories. Ugh. RJ needs to get it right …but too late for that. We just have to treat his statement has a hiccup.
Re others with Old Blood (and I’m having a flashback to Hobbs’ Tawny Man trilogy thinking of that term), Birgitte in the Swovan Night scene points out that others have had similar fragmented TR memory statements, but nothing like Mat’s fox-based expertise.
The moment when Mat starts his battle cry in old tongue… yeah, the MOA doesn’t even cover it. I like even the fact that it feels a bit inconsistent with the rest of the books, like there is always some stuff in book one of a series when everything is not yet fully established, so you get bits that don’t… how to say it… completely resonate with the rest. I have this favorite bit in LOTR, in the chapter “fog on the barrow-downs”, when Merry starts to speak about memories that aren’t really his. I get the same feeling from those two bits – Merry talking about men from Carn Dum and Mat yelling Carai an Caldazar.
I have this theory about Mat and old tongue – he had some ancestral memories, like most of the Duopotamians, and they would come out just in moments like this one, under great pressure. What Finn later did to him only used this talent of his and made it… what’s the word opposite to “dormant”?
Anyway I don’t think Moiraine knew what is going on. Her explanation about “old blood singing” is vague enough to mean anything from “it’s the ancestral memory, sure” to “I have no idea.”
I think this is one of those scenarios where I just have to decide that RJ misspoke (or, perhaps, started to take the story down a path he decided not to ultimately follow). But I totally forgot that Egwene also had a vague understanding of the Old Tongue as well. I wonder if at some point more was to be done with that.
@7 – yes, just like the reference to Morgase knowing something of the tongue of the Two Rivers in her youth as mentioned when they get to Camelyn, it is a ball left hanging in the air.
Is it possible that Mat’s bellowing of the Old Tounge during this scene (rather than his expertise of the Old Tounge in perfect idioyms (after his vist to the Foxes) was initally something that would happen to the fourth Two Rivers Boy. The one that RJ took out from his original working draft but whom made it through to the cover.
Most likely, it porbably was a situation where RJ made some statements that he did not realize were contradictory to a minor scene he wrote years earlier. That is one pass I can forgive.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewB
I have always loved Nynaeve, starting with my first read of EotW and tGH back when those came out in paperback first. It’s probably why I started disliking Elayne and Egwene from tFoH, when they started arguing/competing with her, in a very childish way I might add.
Nynaeve’s POVs are always great to read.
As for the Manetheren roots/background, I loved that piece of history too. I was rather disappointed Perrin did not actually revive it. ;-)
Yeah, there’s a whole cutting room floor full of bits of the EOTW that never got mentioned or used again. Random Ancient-Warcry Tourette’s from genealogical causes being a very minor one, all told.
If you want to get picky about it, you could probably chalk it up to having three uber-ta’veren in one location being enough to fuzz the old-life boundaries in times of stress. Since that stops happening ever again as of book 3 (and most of 2) it’s a nice edge case.
The first quote for Chapter 19 reminds me of something else I felt about Nynaeve (continuing from the previous post) – I really liked how people regularly addressed her as ‘Wisdom’ in the early books, and I could see that it was a title they’d eventually drop and I didn’t like that. I liked the use of a title instead of her name, I liked the respect and acknowledgement of her role that it gave, and I liked that it made a clear statement about who she was. But in keeping with that whole growth thing, it was of course dropped – but I did also like that it was Nynaeve who officially called it and was the one to acknowledge that her role in life was starting to change.
I’ve got to admit, the battle stuff of Chapter 18 really didn’t do it for me. Battle cries and funny languages and the way Moiraine talked about it afterwards felt a bit too much, ‘oh yeah, of course, it’s fantasy – got to have that’. But I do agree about the excitement of realising there is something a little more to a character – both as a reader and for the character themselves.
My rationalisation for the kind-of-not-quite-right stuff that happens here is: there’s lots of old blood in the Two Rivers (because they never really went anywhere, and the large amount of channellers show it too) and it just sits a bit closer to the surface for some of them (eg Egwene), and probably if we ever saw much of the other inhabitants encountering the Old Tongue, many of them might react like Egwene. Meanwhile, Mat’s a bit more extreme and the memories that he has pre-Rhuidean are, in my mind, an old-thing-come-back-again, like Perrin’s wolves and Min’s visions. Therefore he has a predisposition to all that, hence the path he follows with the Snakes/Foxes (I forget which is which). And I’m willing to gloss over what Robert Jordan said about it and believe he mis-spoke or forgot and just tell myself my own theory to make it okay.
Also, couldn’t what Morgase said about the Two Rivers accent just means she encountered some Taren Ferry people some time? Since they get out and about more. But I don’t really remember the quote clearly.
I’m sure I had more thoughts but I’m late for a thing and must sadly abandon the internet.
@1: I think it may have been Rick Boyé or John Hambly who first coined that word (to mean a person from the Two Rivers – notice its resemblance to mesopotamia) on the old Rasfw-rj thread.
Actually, no. Mat did not experience bleedthrough of his previous incarnations in this scene, or in the Tower. He experienced ancestral memories. Blood memories, Mau’dib style.
It is a bit unfortunate that this was not delved into more as the series progressed. Perhaps it would have been in the Outriggers Jordan was planning on writing. I can quite easily retcon his having both implanted memories and ancestral memories, however. In order to prevent a total pyschotic break , the ‘finn implanted memories of personality types who were similar to the ancestral memories already bleeding through. Although, I’m not really sure why they would care if Mat had a psychotic break.
@5: Haha, Perrin would be the one with that kind of Old Blood. And I love Robin Hobb’s books.
@13: I haven’t read Rasfw-rj, so have only encountered the word in Leigh’s Reads. That’s the meaning which I eventually figured out.
@15 – I’d love fan fiction about a three way face off between Perrin, Jon Snow and the Fitz and their animal buddies. Perrin could bring a bunch of wolves to the fight, Jon could warg them, and Fitz could use the Skill to confuse the heck out of Perrin and Jon as well as using his own powers to communicate with the others’ wolves. Each could also fight conventionally with hammer, sword and axe, respectively. Let the good times roll….
@1 – “What does ‘the Rose of the Sun’ even mean?”
Well, if RJ can state that “the wind rose” in Chapter 1 of every book, he can provide that “the sun rose” as well. Hope that answers your question.
Alternatively, it is sunny high in the Mountains in Manetheren and no doubt the Queen – who likes flowers – got herself sunburned. Hence, the name.
Upon return, I find I had three additional thoughts.
The point @3 about the series morphing into something different made me realise that it’s when it morphed that I came to really love the series, rather than just enjoy it in passing, and it’s why I don’t really mind that little came of the old blood stuff in this chapter, because I like where it ended up more than I would have liked to explore this.
At this point, I was pretty much still certain Nynaeve was a traitor and therefore mostly thought she was going to do something iffy with the herbs, but on rereading I, like Leigh, really enjoy how she stands up for herself, doesn’t back down even in the face of intimidating people like Lan and Moiraine, and refuses to be impressed and cowed by Moiraine’s mysterious air and power. (I think I am drawn to Nynaeve as a character because she has many similarities to me, but then she goes and does all the stuff I’d only ever wish I could do, like this.) Plus, moments like this build the case for Nynaeve and Lan’s relationship being one with a basis in something believeable, since a person who can stand up like this is just exactly the sort of person Lan needs, and vice versa. (I just tried various ways of describing what I mean in more detail, and it all sounded very Saldaean, which I had not thought before…) Anyway, it can seem like that scene with the tea at the end of this book comes rather out of the blue, but scenes like this show where it comes from.
And Fiddler@10 – My friend, who’s reading W0T for the first time and is on TFoH, and I said that very thing today about Nynaeve’s PoVs – she’s just so amusing, and one of the best examples of Robert Jordan’s great PoV style.
Regarding Mat and the Old Tongue, while ‘genetic memory’ and’old life memories’ are good enough explanations for me, I’d like to remind you that Mat’s knowledge is more extensive than a few random phrases. Remember in TSR when he goes through BOTH redstone doorways? He has TWO conversations is fluent Old Tongue and DOESN’T KNOW IT AT THE TIME. That’s… a very specfic kind of old memory recall. Which kinda makes his later statement in the same book about FINALLY knowing the Old Tongue, parsed from his Finn memories, kinda weird… but I think he was only using that as an excuse to justify it to himself. It might even be true. Birgitte said later he keeps changing idiom and accent when he speaks the Old Tongue, changing geographic regions. We can’t tell because when MAtt speaks Old Tongue, he’s usually the perspective character and except for the prose getting flowery, we can barely tell, but apparently the difference is more apparent to a listener who knows what she’s hearing…
@19 – In story, Birgitte might be the only person who can recognize Mat changing Old Tongue dialects because she is the only one who has personal knowledge of them (rather than academic knowledge of an archaic language).
@20: The Forsaken too, probably. The Old Tongue is their native language too, and they might also recognize he’s shifting dialect on them, by his word choice if nothing else.
The Forsaken might notice changes in Mat’s accent, but could not identify different dialects from this Age.
R.J. manages to make the battle interesting although the main characters can’t really fight yet. Mat doesn’t even have a weapon for close combat.
Shadar Logoth reminds me of visiting Ostia on a school trip (minus the tourists), especially the theatre. Thom doesn’t care much for actors, but theatre seems to have existed in Aridhol. Or did they have gladiators?
Why do they have a Pantheon in a world without organized religion? The Whitecloak Dome of Truth seems to be the only church-like building in modern Randland, and Darkfriends are the only people who are performing some kind of religious rituals.
Mordeth seems to cry out when Mat takes the dagger. Why is the dagger special? It is never explained how it differs from the rest of the treasure.
Mat nearly mentions the dagger several times but there is always something distracting him before he finishes what he wanted to say.
Does Rand wake up because he can feel the Trollocs?
Is the old man in Rand’s dream Balthamel?
birgit,
I always considered the dagger to be something like the One Ring (except for the binding all part): a personal item of Mordeth, carrying the core of the SL-corruption.
Note how Mordeth/Fain’s corruption/evolution seems to go faster from the moment he has regained the dagger…
I thought Mordeth was connected to all the items in Shadar Logoth (hence Moiriaine telling them not to take anything), and it just so happened that Mat took a fancy to the dagger? And whatever item he took would have had the same effect?
Duopotamians??
What does this word mean? I see it mentioned but have no idea what the reference here is.
@24 -exactly right
@25 – joke playing off of the term Mesopotamia (which I think means between rivers) and Duo (loosely meaning two) to specifically refer to denizens of the Two Rivers
For Leigh, with apologies to CCR:
Late in the evenin’ long after supper time
Over at the Best Buy, they’re startin’ to get in line,
Black Friday’s round the corner with deals for Aiels
Leigh’s going shoppin’, needs retail therapy
Down at the Best Buy, lined up in the street
Black Friday is a comin’
Bring your money, move your feet
RobM@16….I’d love to see that cage match!
I always assumed that Mat had plenty of “blood memories” of his own, due to this outburst…and Moraine’s observations.
Don’t we get more info on Egwene later that indicates her involvement with Aemon and his queen? Did I make that up?
@16: Yesss! But you won’t find it at fanfiction.net, which doesn’t accept Robin Hobb fanfics, at her request. A request which GRRM has apparently never made, which is odd because Westeros.org claims he “does not allow or approve of fanfiction.”
I always took Egwene’s ability to almost understand the old tongue as a reference to the old and new tongue being related. I think RJ likened it to modern day Itatalian (new tongue) to Latin (old tongue). Her ability to sort of follow what Mat was saying would be like me being able to sort of follow a German-speaker 20 years after my high school Deutch classes.
16. RobMRobM
Many moons ago I wrote a suvudu cage match battle between Jon Snow and Perrin Aybara. I think I also posted it on tor.com when it (sadly) did not make the cut. If you want I can repost it here – it will be a nice complement to the Faile-bashing on the previous thread :) :) :)
17. RobMRobM
*facepalm*
Nynaeve is still the best even at the start refusing to be intimidated by either Lan or Morraine. Also a total dick move by Morraine to not maybe mention how dangerous the place is. Way too in love with the idea of everyone blindly following her orders. That being said Mat really is That Guy in a horror movie.
Always love the Shadar Logoth stuff. So eerie and, unlike a lot of the other supernatural elements in the series, it remains relatively mysterious to the end.
@23 Fiddler I got the impression that the dagger is only important in that it is the only item outside of Shadar Logoth that contains some of Mashadars power. There’s a POV later on where Fain thinks about getting something else from there as a substitute but is afraid he’ll get trapped there again.
As foreshadowing, the reborn part that Thom mentions doesn’t really resonate with me, since Rand is the reborn one, and we later find out that Mat is not yet a Hero of the Horn reborn. So it doesn’t really apply to him, and he is the one to show the leakage.
The leakage could very well have persisted throughout the series, the only thing is that it is never specifically mentioned again. However, if you chalk up his spouting the Old Tongue without realizing it to his Muad’Dib ancestral blood memories, and the military prowess to the ‘Finn memories, it all makes sense. The changing of idiom etc. mid-sentence is probably the combination of the two, then.
The Finn memories are memories taken from different people who lived in different places over about 2,000 years (Trolloc Wars to Arthur Hawkwing). It stands to reason that they by themselves would provide plenty of linguistic variation, quite enough to explain all of Mat’s different idioms.
I would explain Mat’s Old Tongue Inconsistencies by purely literary means. In the early books, RJ needs eerie spooky foreshadowing, backstory and dramatic effect, so the Old Tongue pops up through the Olde Bloode.
Once Mat’s been to Finnland, his fluency has a much stronger leg to stand on; besides, the world is not much more familiar to us readers, and its rules have become more firmly established, so the arcane glamor of the old explanations is no longer necessary. The Old Blood as a motif simply falls into disuse.
@34:
But, of course, Mat was speaking fluent Old Tounge while on his first visit to ‘finnland in TSR. Before receiving the memories on his second visit to ‘finnland at the end of TSR. He didn’t need a translator, and Rand did. So, Ye Olde Bloode was a very important plot point as late as the end of TSR, since it allowed Mat to communicate directly witht he ‘finn, without a translator.
Which is, of course, ironic, since he still didn’t understand a word they said ;)
JL@31 – feel free to bring it on. Love to read it. I actually do remember reading the two way Jon Snow-Perrin battle on suvudu back in the day, but the three-way would be even more fun. Someone needs to make it so.
Mat’s change in path from old blood stuff to memories from the Finn also comes at about the time of his transformation from shadowy potential obstacle to gallavanting hero. I don’t know if I have a point; it just occurred to me because my mum’s currently reading the books for the first time and is halfway through TSR and she’s still certain Mat’s going to go bad – I think she’s going to be really disappointed by there being no pay off to that inital set up. Mat just ends up taking a very different path than expected all round. And I like his story, but I’d also kind of like to read whatever story might have come out of the original set up too.
re: no memories
The important point would be the question RJ gave the anwer to. I assume it was “Are Mat’s *finn memories from his past incarnations?” and RJ truthfully answered “No, none of his memories are from his past lives at all”
He probably didn’t consider the Old Blood stuff memories because they never were conscious things. The *finn stuff was always tied to specific things he remembered, like “Oh, that’s totally like when I was King Whatshisname’s general and we did that thing with the things and totally won the battle. Shame I died, though”. The Old Blood stuff on the other hand was always more like something that just poured out and he was never able to remember where it came from or even what it was that he said or did while it poured…
Well, now that I think about it. Mat’s ancestry may indeed be special. His last name is different, for one. Rand al’Thor and Perrin Aybara, literally translate into Rand son of Thor and Perrin something(probably daughter) of Bara. Mat? He’s just Cauthon. A bloodline possibly so ancient it’s not anybody’s son or other. Or conversely fairly recently come to the Two Rivers. Recent enough that he’s literally closer to his Old Tongue speaking ancestors than others.
In any case, his speaking in the Old Tongue at this point, and right down to his conversations with the Finns, seem to be instinctive for the most part.
See his connection to the Old Tongue was always the closest among the Two Rivers protagonists. A connection that was possibly strengthened when the Dagger, itself a relic from a time when the Old Tongue was more common, infested him. That connection was possibly strengthened even more when he was Healed. Yes he lost some memories. But in a sense, a lot of the rubble between his current memories and his Old Tongue instincts were also cleared out. And then the Finns filled in the gaps with actual Old Tongue goodies. I’d also point out that Finnland was close to TAR, so therefore Mat may have also been closer to his subconscious when he conversed with them using the Old Tongue.
Yes, Birgitte would recognize them, having lived at one time or another when these same dialects and accents were spoken. Not so sure about the Forsaken, though. Much of Mat’s conscious Old Tongue, which he got from the Finns, were from long after the fall of the AoL. The Forsaken would recognize his speech as Old Tongue but would likely be unable to place the accent or dialect.
35. anthonypero
The fact that Mat didn’t need a translator is a literary device in this scene. They could have brought him a translator without any trouble to the plot. But RJ did away with the translator to make the scene flow much more smoothly for the readers, especially with its dramatic finale; and also for the hair-raising reveal afterwards when Mat realizes he had been speaking the Old Tongue.
I managed to find that suvudu cagematch I wrote – Perrin Aybara vs. Jon Snow:
In the dark, cold heart of the Godswood, Jon prayed for a swift death.
The pale morning light gave no warmth to his flesh as he knelt before the Heart Tree and prayed as he had seen his father pray so often – as he himself had also prayed, prayed to the nameless gods of the forest, but the gods never answered. They had not answered his father either.
When death comes, let it be quick, he said in his heart. And without shame. He had pledged his honor to the Night Watch, but he still feared shame more than death. He had seen this Perrin fight before, with the strength of an ox, the speed of a snake, a cruel hammer forged by the gods, and the murderous luck of a ta’veren. What chance did a half-trained youth have? He had seen one man slip on his first step and break his back on an unseen rock, to die gazing helplessly at the hammer as it descended on his face. Let me die with honor.
“Jon!”
The voice had come from nowhere, and everywhere, teasing his ear with familiarity. He spun around, looking for the speaker –
“Jon! Listen to me!”
“Bran? Is that you – ” Of course not. Bran was a thousand miles north, and dead, even if unburied. This was foolishness. He was alone. Alone in the Godswood.
Alone with the Gods.
Who never answered –
“Jon, listen to me. Jojen dreamed a green dream. You can defeat Perrin if you listen to me!”
Slowly he turned his head back to the heart tree. The face stared back at him with glowing red eyes. Its wooden lips seemed to move as the words poured forth.Heart thudding in his chest, Jon listened. He could not understand how this could save him, but there was still time to prepare. There might be time. If it failed, he would still die with honor. And if it worked…
His legs were moving before he realized a decision had been made. The Godswood echoed to the sound of his running feet.
——————————-
To understand a thing, you must understand its parts.
Perrin had studied his opponent and knew his parts, but caution was a part of him, and his nose smelled a trap. The sword was power-forged, that much he knew, and the boy – surely no more than a boy – held it as though it were a part of him, yet Perrin knew him to be only half-trained. He reminded him of nothing so much as Rand during their days in Fal Dara, before Lan had made him a blademaster. This one will move quickly – I must not overextend myself. And yet the scent of fear coming from the boy overpowered everything else.
The wolf is missing he realized. He will try to surprise me. And yet something still troubled him. I will be careful with this one. He hefted his hammer and took a first step towards him. When a thing needs to be done, best do it quickly.
——————————-
Jon watched as the heavy-set blacksmith plodded towards him. Time. I need more time. The hammer was such that two men might struggle to lift it, yet the man swung it freely with one hand. Jon’s hand strayed to the cord around his neck. Now? Too early will ruin everything. The man had yellow eyes. I must stall. He will be upon me soon.
He was ready for the swing of the hammer, yet it came so quickly he barely had time to evade it. Another swing came so close he felt its breath upon his cheek. Jon dodged around him, waiting for an opening. I must fight normally, or he will suspect. He stepped back as the hammer passed in front of him, darting in to strike –
The fist caught him in the ear, throwing him to his hands and knees. He looked up just as another caught him in the chin. How could so big a man move so fast? The world tilted crazily around him as he tried to get up. Where was his sword? His scrabbling fingers found a boot. Perrin was standing over him. He was going to die like a rat.
——————————-
Perrin tossed the discarded sword into the bushes. It will come now, he thought as he stood over the feebly twitching boy. Now! He fell to one knee and rolled as the direwolf leaped for his neck, and stood up to face the beast. Higher than his waist it stood, white as snow, its red eyes lit with surprise. It had not expected him to anticipate his –
Young Bull
For a moment Perrin stood gaping. How do you know –
Hopper gave me your scent.
Hopper? How could you know Hopper?
When a wolf dies in your world, he is reborn in this one.
Jon was forgotten. The fight was forgotten. Everything was forgotten. Hopper! Where is he? When did you meet him?
Images reeled through Perrin’s mind, grasping for words to express themselves. North-of-the-wall meant an endless forest, frozen in snow since the first turning of the wheel, but also in the shadow of a cliff of ice which reached the heavens. 1 ASOS:53 meant dozens of moons ago, but also the third step of a path of seven steps, yet the step was split in two, and the fourth step had a missing half. The first ones were close together and solid, but then the path seemed to stretch out until forever, and the last steps were only a shadow of a dream. He could not understand the half of it. But death stood on the third step.
What did you do? Rage coursed through him. What did you do!?
Young I was, and bored. The direwolf’s toothy grin seemed to laugh at him. He was too weak to stand against me, and too slow to flee. His pack had many shes… though they would not let me mount them until I had killed his cubs.
——————————–
His stomach emptied itself, and Jon knew he was alive. Blinking mud from his eyes, he looked around. Ghost and Perrin were standing in front of each other, gazes locked, neither moving. I must do it now. His hand scrambled for the cord around his neck, and he blew with all his might on the whistle. Had it worked? His ears heard nothing, but that was the point. The taste of mud – and blood – filled his mouth. It’s fouled. He cleaned the whistle on his sleeve and tried again. Had it worked? Again. Again!
In the distance he heard the barking of dogs. Two dogs. One from his right and one from his left. He almost laughed with relief. He would live. Men could not hear the whistle, but dogs could, and when they started barking, Sam and Pyp would open the cages, and then –
The wild howl of a wolf’s rage brought his attention back. With a snarl of fury Perrin launched himself at Ghost’s throat, and they fell to the ground in a flurry of fur and blood. Helplessly Jon watched as Ghost struggled on his back, but before he knew it the fight was over. Perrin raised his face from Ghost’s neck as the wolf’s lifeblood spurted forth. The man’s chin was covered in blood, and his eyes were death. Too late. He could feel Ghost die. I was too late!
Twin screeches of rage and the flutter of strong wings announced the birds as they arrived. The falcon and the hawk met directly over Perrin’s head, and attacked each other with a vengeance. It’s too late. Feathers flew, and drops of blood, as talon and beak struck with a fury he could not have imagined. Yet half the blows seemed to strike Perrin, no matter how much he tried to protect his face. It’s too late. To and fro the blacksmith ran, yet the frenzy followed him as if the birds were attached to his neck by a short leash. A falcon from the northwest and a hawk from the southeast. The Gods had spoken to him from the heart tree, yet he had not truly believed it until now. The blacksmith was on his knees, his ruined face pressed against the ground and his arms wrapped around his head, but even so birds continued their murderous struggle. Jon crawled over to Ghost. The ground was wet with the direwolf’s blood. His eyes were glazed. It’s too late.
——————————-
The hawk had been driven off by the time Jon walked over to Perrin, but the assault continued unabated. The falcon was now perched on his wide neck, its talons firmly set against the flesh of his throat, yet not drawing blood – as if it meant to sit there until the mountains were worn away. Its beak pecked mercilessly at the blacksmith’s head in a steady beat. His bloody hands with torn and missing fingers offered no protection. Most of the hair was gone, and between the fingers, bone gleamed wetly. The beak struck the skull with a pecking rhythm to drive a man to madness. Perrin seemed halfway there, mumbling broken phrases –
“I’m sorry Faile… Yes Faile…I’ll do the dishes Faile… I know I was wrong, Faile… I won’t leave the toilet seat up Faile… Please forgive me Faile… I love you Faile…”
When the pitiful wretch that used to be a man raised his gaze to him Jon flinched. He knew what Perrin wanted even before the words were spoken.
“…please…. Jon… Kill me! End it! Save me from her!!”.
Jon pulled his dagger from its sheath. It would be a mercy.
@41 I have no idea what a suvudu cage match is, but the story is an interesting read. It makes me sorry Perrin had to die that way, especially being so savagely attacked by the falcon, but I surmise that the story revolves around a set of prior stories?
@WDWParksGal
Suvudu cagematches are a bracket tournament where characters from different stories are set against each other. The stories/backgrounds are fun, and I think it’s meant to make people use their imagination.
But since the winner is picked through online voting, it has gotten to which fandom can mobilize the biggest number of vote(r)s.
Which makes it boring to me. :)
But some of the suvudu cage matches are classics. Perhaps my favorite was Jaime Lannister v. Rand al’Thor several years ago – which should have been a humongous mismatch (and it was, in the website voting totals) – except that GRRM wrote a description that included a Trial of the Seven battle (drawing from Westerosi history) and GRRM populating Jamie’s team with powerful characters from his numerous sci-fi stories. Awesome homage showing deep understanding of both Wheel of Time and his own works.
Edit – 2010. Link is available by google searching suvudu cage match and jaime lannister. I can’t drop it in here, however.
Sorry for the lateness; last week has been very busy again, plus it was my birthday!
I always figured that Jordan just forgot what he had Mat say and do prior to the meeting with the Foxes; indeed, there was a lot of material in WOT (not to mention all the notes and background info we never even saw), and it was a long time ago, so it would be easy to forget the bits of the Old Tongue or the scene during his Healing in TDR. And since the memories were from all over Randland and all throughout time after he met the Finn, while before it was all exclusively Manetheren, then the two explanations fit together just fine. As for Mat’s past life, we don’t know of any other people who had bleedover but that doesn’t mean they don’t exist. Plus, he’s ta’veren, and that may in fact be why he is, since having a stronger connection than most to your past life would enable you to have more influence over the Pattern. Not to mention that being a soldier and hero in that life would make it make more sense for him to be the Hornsounder or tied to the Heroes of the Horn in general.
One thing though, why is it we say Mat was not Aemon? The WOT Encyclopedia says he was, and in fact notes that after the Healing in the Tower, Mat actually remembers being Aemon. Regardless, he was clearly part of the Band of the Red Hand and that’s why he recreated it later. But him being Aemon would fit a few other things, and would also explain the connection with Egwene. Because while we never learn of any past life for Egwene or of any other way the old blood sings in her aside from the understanding of the Old Tongue (though her stubbornness and ferocity in battle do suggest Manetheren), recall what I said a few posts back about how Egwene’s heroic sacrifice against Taim reflects Eldrene’s. In that case having Mat be Aemon makes a beautiful parallel, as we once again have a powerful Aes Sedai giving her life to destroy the Shadow while her armies are led by a brave, smart, brilliant tactician. Even Mat not being her Warder doesn’t detract from this, since we don’t know for sure Aemon was Eldrene’s, and he certainly came to her rescue and protected her a great deal. And in both cases it’s the blood of Manetheren winning the day. But I suppose this could work if Mat were just a member of the Band, too.
Side note: still love the foreshadowing for Mat with him and that noose.
As for Moiraine, it is indeed interesting to think of in retrospect. At this point in the narrative, upon first reading, we aren’t surprised by her power–she’s the Gandalf figure and we expect her to have great magic to help protect the helpless heroes. But it’s true, later on when we see the sorts of things Aes Sedai can do, very little of it is of the same magnitude as this, and when it is it’s only from Aes Sedai we know are very powerful like Siuan, Egwene, Nynaeve, and Elayne. So that proves just how strong Moiraine is for her generation.
Also of note are two other things: one, the fact she says she isn’t strong in Fire and Earth (as women tend not to be), yet still, look at the amazing things she does here! If that’s what can be done when you aren’t strong, imagine what can be done if you are (and we do see that later, from Egwene herself and also from Rand and the Asha’man)…and what Moiraine could do instead with Air and Water. Secondly, her staff: Egwene specifically calls attention to it only for Moiraine to dismiss it as merely an “aid for concentration”. This suggests to me that even if Jordan hadn’t yet worked out all the rules of magic, he always intended this staff to be a temporary thing (included just for the LOTR imagery). Exactly how it works remain unknown, but I have to wonder if maybe it’s somewhat like how it’s later said that Aes Sedai learn to use certain gestures when making weaves, to the point the gestures become required for their mind to be able to produce them. Except instead of her ability being actually tied to the staff, it’s a case of that her mind becomes able to produce stronger effects due to her concentration upon it, that by doing so she enables herself to get past certain blocks as to what is possible and thus produce such amazing magic; i.e. it isn’t the staff itself she requires, it’s the state of mind which unlocks the power, a state she learned to associate with the staff so she can’t do it without it, at least not as easily. Which again makes me wonder exactly where and from whom she learned this technique…
Also, interesting to note the introduction here of another old mystical idea (and LOTR shout-out) with the Trollocs and Fades being afraid to enter or cross running water. This never really gets brought up again–but then I don’t recall many instances of times where the heroes are being threatened by Shadowspawn and rivers happen to be around–but it’s still a nice throwback to beliefs about evil and its minions.
I never was bothered by Nynaeve trying to insist upon the importance of herbs and how she was needed to help Moiraine. Yes, there were things she didn’t know about the Power and how it could restore her, and yes she was trying to drum up her own usefulness and antagonize Moiraine and Lan, but it also made sense to me at the time that magic would have limits, and that if Moiraine had reached hers as far as restoring her own strength, it was only fair and right that Nynaeve could prove herself by helping further with her herbs. The fact that her usage of herbs ends up saving the day at Shayol Ghul is just another callback to TEotW on Sanderson’s part–to this very scene, I would speculate.
What did bother me was Shadar Logoth–specifically, that it wasn’t marked on the map. I know, lost city ruins, and Jordan didn’t want to give anything away so we could be surprised (though it was still included in the glossary), but I remember upon first reading being annoyed, because its lack of inclusion made it hard for me to figure out exactly where the party was on the map. Of course in hindsight (and with information given in the Guide) it was pretty easy to figure out–east of Baerlon, in the forested area north of the Manetherendrelle and west of the Arinelle. Still, it perturbed me at the time. Such a typical nerdy fan response. :P
Aside from that, even after all this time, the story of Aridhol and what happened to it still chills me. Not that we get the full story, not even in the Guide…I really hope it’s included in the encyclopedia, even if is as grim as Moiraine says. What did she mean by the bit with Caar and Rhea and how they died? (Why would she kill him?) What was Aleth-Loriel? What were the secrets Mordeth discovered which unlocked this new evil, and how did it create Mashadar?
I also was struck by the irony that Aridhol was once an ally of Manetheren’s, and yet look what ends up happening between Fain/Mordeth on the one hand and Rand and Mat on the other. At the time of the first book, I saw it as just an object lesson–the two nations were allies, but one chose to destroy the Shadow by sacrificing itself while the other tried to beat it at its own game and thus ended up falling into hatred, madness, and a completely different evil. The right path to follow is obviously made clear. But with what happens later…in a strange way, the old alliance is upheld. If it hadn’t been for the wound Fain gave Rand, he couldn’t have had the unHealable wound sealed (and thus keep living until Tarmon Gai’don), and he wouldn’t have figured out the key to cleansing the taint. Plus of course a number of things Fain was doing kept Ishamael from focusing fully on Rand, which was also a godsend. So though he didn’t intend it, Mordeth actually did do his part to help the Light win, by a twisted logic. Huh.
And wow, that line of Thom’s having so many ramifications and interpretation is just awesome and delicious. You have to think Jordan was sitting there, grinning like a Cheshire cat, when he wrote it, knowing what all it would really mean and that most readers wouldn’t get it until much, much later.
On another side note, Rand’s dream was clever in how it foreshadowed him losing his own hand, but quite clearly in context it was referencing the story of Caar One-Hand (who ironically was Mat’s ancestor, if he really was Aemon!), with the mad old man being King Balwen, and the rest with the babe and sword just being elements of Lan’s history Moiraine had just related.
@1 AeronaGreenjoy: A poetic means of describing a sunflower? Or maybe a magical bloom, like the one in Disney’s Tangled? Also, the Sun is often used in names for Jesus, and the rose is a religious symbol of (depending on the source) Jesus, the Holy Grail, or Mary. So perhaps the title is meant to suggest the holy and divine.
@10 Fiddler: You never know, he just might, post-Last Battle.
@11 Hammerlock: As of book three, the three ta’veren are never all in the same place again. That may have something to do with it, if your theory is correct.
@21 scm of 2814: Apparently he doesn’t do it all the time; he spoke in Semirhage’s presence in Ebou Dar and she didn’t have any odd reactions. And since she didn’t know what he looked like until KoD, if he had been speaking in numerous Old Tongue dialects I’d think she’d have found the fact he could so enough reason to pay more attention to him (unless as a Healer she just didn’t care about languages). At the very least once she did see his face, she might have said “Oh so that’s why he could speak Old Tongue”. Ironically, the only Forsaken who might have recognized the dialect changes would have been Balthamel, and the one time he met Mat as Halima there wasn’t much conversation going on. Although as birgit noted, all they would have noticed was the change itself, not what it was changing to, since they wouldn’t know the dialects.
@22 birgit: Very interesting points. It suggests Aridhol was Grecian or Roman in its architecture. Which makes sense, since the era prior to the Trolloc Wars still had a lot of inherited elements from the Age of Legends, which was in turn very Classical in much of its descriptions. And you’re quite right, the only Forsaken who could recognize actual dialects in Mat’s Old Tongue would be Ishamael, since he was out and about periodically through the years.
As to why the dagger was so special…? Maybe it was Mordeth’s personal weapon? Or Balwen’s? Or the one used to cut off Caar’s hand?
I answered your last question above, I’m pretty sure based on Moiraine’s story he was Balwen.
@24 Sian17: Min saw a ruby dagger around Mat before he ever came to Shadar Logoth. So either his interest in a dagger over other items is itself something fated, or there is indeed something special about the dagger.
@38 Randalator: Good point, yet another Aes Sedai answer from Jordan!
@@@@@ 45 macster
I may be wrong here, but aren’t Darkhounds incapable of crossing water? Or was that just legend, and the only way to lose track of them was Travelling or Balefire?
Mac – I assumed Mat was Aemon as well. In the TDR healing, he is ordering around the Heart Guard, which is the core group of the Band of the Red Hand. Who else would he be?
@43 Fiddler~ thank you for the explanation regarding cage matches. I had never heard of such a match-up but it is hard to keep up with all the things on the interwebs these days.
I still don’t get how the voting goes. Are the matches written a little at a time until the voting dictates the outcome?
There is a setup story, everybody votes (its a popularity contest) then there are either one or two followup stories written. There is a story written reflecting the fan vote, then, if the editors of the site disagree with the fan vote (say, Mat beats some super-powered baddie from another series) then the editors also write a story reflecting what they think should have happened.
Then, occasionally, like the GRRM post referenced above, the authors themselves will weigh in. Those are the best ones.
@49 Thank you Anthony. Where exactly IS this site? I would like to peruse it :D
42. WDWParksGal
The story is meant as an allegory on Perrin’s character in the Wheel of Time. Namely, that a strong and admirable protagonist was ruined because of a plotline in which a Falcon (Faile) and a Hawk (Berelain) fight over him pointlessly (from our perspective). The nature of his demise suggests that he himself would prefer his character to die than to degenerate in such a fashion.
I supposed at the time that the suvudu judges rather missed my point, but I also wondered then (as I do know) if I might have been rather too subtle.
@51 JonathanLevy
Perhaps the two birds and the two women comparison was a bit subtle. I did pick up on the Falcon connection with Faile but didn’t for the Hawk. Still a cool story, though, and an enjoyable read.
Ah – I understood the Faile/Berelain connection (as it matches with Min’s vision) but I didn’t quite get the point – the idea that it ruined his character in the story :)
Seriously, why’d you have to do that to Hopper though ;)
When Moiraine learned channeling she thought all AS use objects as a focus, that is why her Wilder tricks are connected to her blue stone. That might also explain why using a staff seems useful to her.
@50:
Suvudu.com hosts them. Its a site a lot like Tor.com, but owned and operated by Random House, while Tor.com is owned by Macmillan.
@54 birgit
re: Moiraine & focus objects vs. the unreplaced staff
Well, as Moiraine said herself:
Which means a) holy Badass Boast, Batman (don’t click that) and b) during her post-EotW downtime she Took a Level in Badass (or that). I’d argue that in the process she just got past her dependence on focus objects except for her “childhood trick”, which is why she never replaced her staff.
@56:
I always took that to mean that she discovered the Balefire weave while researching at Aldeas’ and Vandene’s Library during the events of tGH, which she then subsequently used on the darkhounds, and never got to try it on Be’lal
@46 Ryamano: You’re right, that was mentioned. However, in the scene where the Darkhounds chase Moiraine and Perrin’s group outside Illian, they don’t have any problem going through the rain (and I think they crossed a river too?). Anyway, even if true, the only other times in the series that Darkhounds were involved (prior to the Last Battle), no water was around–some attacked in the Waste in both TSR and TFoH, and the group Perrin learned of in Ghealdan were far from any major rivers.
@54 birgit, @56 Randalator, @57 anthonypero: Good points all. Of course I rather thought it might have been with Adeleas and Vandene that she learned how to use the staff too, since it seems a step above the head jewel, but perhaps it really was the same sort of thing and she already had learned it instinctively as a novice (or even before she came to the Tower). In either case, I agree she learned balefire from their books, which regardless the source of her knowledge with the staff would have given her a step up in her One Power arsenal and thus make her no longer need it or anything like it.
I don’t understand why Moiraine goes with earth quakes and a wall of fire, instead of just taking out the fades one by one. In the run up to the last battle, killing fades is what the aes Sedai with egwene spend most of their time doing and it is very effective.